Forum Activity for @paul-rappell

Paul Rappell
@paul-rappell
05/12/10 12:25:54PM
31 posts



What kind of tailpiece do you have? If it's an adjustable one that hangs out over the head, like a Kirschner, Presto, or clamshell, you might first want to try adjusting the angle. Lower/tighter (closer to the head) will give a brighter tone, and looser should make for a softer sound. I can do that on one banjo (clamshell tailpiece), not the other (old Elite tailpiece ca. 1910).Have you stuffed anything behind the head, inside the banjo? I get rid of overtones and dampen the sound by packing material (lately a fleece sunglasses bag, rolled up) between the dowel stick and the head.Splitting heads (skin) was too much of a hassle for me. Now I only use synthetic.I'd always go for the simplest possible solution first.
Strumelia
@strumelia
05/12/10 10:09:33AM
2,413 posts



Hunter, am I correct in thinking this is an antique banjo?If so, then the pot may be slightly out of true and not a perfect circle, which can complicate matters if you are changing types of heads. It can be done, but sometimes there are issues that need to be solved.Pot slightly warped out of true, brackets that wont fit over modern flesh hoops, odd non-standard sized pot, etc. What kind of head is on there now? Is there anything wrong with it, like holes or splitting?If the head is ok on an antique banjo, I would leave it alone. A LOT can be done to change tone by tweaking instead: your setup, string material and gauges, the tailpiece type and tension, head tension, the bridge used... I would fiddle with all those things before I changed a perfectly good functional head on an antique banjo. Even a plastic frosted 'bluegrass head' can sound old and plunky if you tweak all the other stuff just right. If it's a modern banjo, then changing the head is 'usually' less tricky.Personally, I've done it all- frosted plastic head, Fiberskin, calfskin, Renaissance, you name it, I've spent time installing them and playing on them on various +/- 18 banjos that I've owned, set up, fixed and/or tweaked. I play a lot at outside camping festivals and I did find it to be very tedious dealing with the humidity and real calfskin heads. It got old fast. Real gut strings had the same problem absorbing humidity and literally getting soft like al dente pasta (!) on rainy warm humid summer days while camping. Nylon strings had no such issue and sounded almost like gut.After much experimentation, I found that Renaissance heads gave me a sound very close to real calfskin but without any of the inherent problems. Better sound than even the Fiberskin heads. That's now what I use on all 7 of my banjos. (except the delicate 1800's antique one, which still retains its old calfskin head).
Paul Certo
@paul-certo
05/12/10 02:00:47AM
242 posts



http://savethebanjos.com/Skin%20Head%20How-To.htm Here's instructions for installing the head. Another thing you might try first is a lower tuning, especially with nylon or Nylgut strings. Aquilla makes the Nylgut strings in two variations, one is tuned to a lower key, I think it's open E. The relationship is the same as G tuning, so all the fingerings are the same, but it plays in a lower key. You can also still retune for the equivalent of the double C and modal tunings, but they will be lower also. Double C would work out to A, the G modal would be E modal. I tried Nylguts on my banjo, and liked them a lot, but I really didn't try a lot of re tuning , as I mostly play in Double C. You may find nylon stretches a lot when you change tunings, and may take a bit to stabilize in each new tuning. We have Nylguts on both of our uke'sand they sound good also.Paul
Paul Certo
@paul-certo
05/12/10 01:31:32AM
242 posts



What kind of head is on it now? And how much plunk is too much? The ultimate in plunk is a natural head on a gourd. If you were looking to buy a banjo, I would suggest buying a larger than normal pot, say 12" or 13 ". The standard these days seems to be 11", but partly because a brighter sound is in vogue, especially for bluegrass players. As you already have a banjo, a new head makes more financial sense.Be aware that natural heads are affected by humidity. You may find the head needs to be tightened on rainy days, and loosened in dry weather. If left too tight during dry weather it may shrink enough to split. The synthetic heads don't have this problem as they don't absorb or release moisture. This isn't a major consideration, just something to be aware of.Last time I looked, natural heads were about $50, but they usually need to be mounted to a metal ring. I think the ring is sold separate from the hide. Somewhere on the web I saw a set of instructions for doing all this. I'll see if I bookmarked it & post it if I find it.
Strumelia
@strumelia
05/09/10 09:17:30AM
2,413 posts



The reason I ask what brand Hunter is that I have used cheaper Bella brand nylon banjo strings- for me they stretch and break way too easily. I've also used nylon fishing line in various cool thickness. That too stretched way to much and was forever bouncy- like playing on a trampoline.Switching to Nylagut nylon banjo strings....really good stiffer tension, broke way less often great sound and great response. For the price of a pack you can check it out. It makes a HUGE difference in giving a really old sounding plunky tone instantly. If you like them and want to keep them, then you might be smart to widen your nut and bridge slots for the two thickest strings at least- they are thicker than steel strings and ought to be seated properly in the slots for long term playing. Personally I find that switching to nylon strings will make a much bigger change to 'plunky' than changing to calfskin heads. I have tried every combination possible for many years on many banjos. I've played for years on both steel and nylon strings, and all kinds of heads, skin, renaissance, fiberskin....
Strumelia
@strumelia
05/09/10 01:06:00AM
2,413 posts



First you can try loosening the head just a bit- and don't forget the tailpiece bracket.What kind of nylon strings did you play on previously? Some kinds are not so good.
Strumelia
@strumelia
05/08/10 10:06:18PM
2,413 posts



The best, cheapest, quickest, and most dramatic way to achieve an instant plunkier sound is to put nylon strings on your banjo. I recommend Nylagut brand.
Banjimer
@greg-gunner
05/08/10 08:41:45PM
142 posts



Everything else being equal, a skin head will have a mellower, plunkier sound than a plastic head. In between the frosted, plastic head (brightest sound) and skin head (mellowest sound), you will find the Fyberskin head and the Renassaince head.Within limits you can also adjust the tension on the head by tightening or loosening the hook/nuts on the side of the banjo pot. A tighter head will have a brighter sound. A looser head will have a plunkier sound.Greg
updated by @greg-gunner: 02/12/16 06:10:29PM
Paul Certo
@paul-certo
05/10/10 11:40:13PM
242 posts



There are a couple of other things involved here that come from the origins of some of the oldest songs and styles of playing. Modern music is very much chord based and relies on chords for it's harmonies. But older music frequently didn't use chords for harmony. Sometimes only a single root note was used. The root would normally be the keynote of the scale the tune was played in. Instruments of the violin and guitar families, are chromatic, and can play in a variety of keys. But strummed chords are really more of a late 19th/early20th century concept. Guitars were played by plucking individual strings,and chords were not generally fingered. Violins didn't play chords either, and it's a rare thing even now. Some fiddlers played double stops, or 2 strings at once, but by necessity these were adjacent strings. If the fiddler played a melody on the E string, the A string could be used as a drone. Moving the melody to the A string made the D string available as a drone. Likewise, the melody could be moved to the D string, using the G as the drone. It's not too surprising that so many fiddle tunes are played in the keys of A,D, & G. These were the easiest notes to drone as a harmony note. And if you think about it, the D drone leaves the A melody string in the same relationship as the dulcimer in DAA tuning. At some point, dulcimers were made as 3 course instruments, allowing a two note drone harmony. I don't know if this was the original configuration, or if 2 course dulcimers existed before the 3 course models that are so common now. This may also be why dulcimers are fretted the way they are: The fiddle player is using a I drone string and a V melody string in each of the cases I cited above. Just like the standard DAA dulcimer tuning, except the dulcimer has an extra drone string. Having the melody string start on the V instead of the I gives the player a few notes below the start of the scale to "walk up" to the starting point. The same configuration as the fiddle.Incidentally, this is also why Clawhammer and Old Time banjo players use multiple tunings- each tuning is designed to allow drones for a certain key. Bluegrass players seldom use these extra tunings, as Bluegrass is a chord based music.Paul
Robin Clark
@robin-clark
05/10/10 03:45:14PM
239 posts



Ahhh!!!!!Galax tuning has some very specific advantages, particularly when you start playing with other musicians. From d,d,d,d you can play in the keys of D or G without re-tuning and, using a reverse capo at the first fret or tuning the drones up to e,e you can play in the key of A minor and A major. Those 4 keys are the standard session keys for old time and Celtic sessions.Whilst I would agree that Galax tuning is not as "sweet" as 1-5 drones when played solo it is an excellent tuning when you add one or more additional instruments. Additionally, as Folkfan says, you can use the bagpipe varient (or Galax) to produce a very ancient sound. The single drone (often the 5th rather than the root) is a feature of old Celtic music.Once you start playing with other musicians you will certainly "get" Galax and bagpipe.Robin
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
05/07/10 09:35:48PM
2,157 posts



Gerard. Please do not post the same question in multiple areas, as you have done with this. Because you posted this also in the Noter & Drone Group area, you have a number of us wondering what happened to our previous responses.
B. Ross Ashley
@b-ross-ashley
05/07/10 07:58:49PM
59 posts



Could have sworn I'd already replied to this ... I like it, although I've never yet played it myself. Have a look on youtube at some Galax dulcimer videos.
folkfan
@folkfan
05/07/10 05:50:34PM
357 posts



If you normally play in a chord or chord/melody style, getting used to the sound of the drones can be difficult perhaps. Since I've never played anything but drones, I'm quite used to them and find that songs such as Bonnie Dundee, Will Ye No Come Back Again?, Coulter's Candy, Flower of Scotland, The Minstrel Boy, Skye Boat Song and so on sound quite grand played in a Bagpipe tuning. The drones give the music the flavor or taste of the pipes where the drones are the same note only an octave apart and in tune with the chanter. So in olden days when the pipes weren't available (or forbidden), the dulcimer gave Celtic music and the Celtic ear the sound needed.I learned the Bagpipe tuning from an old book, so I'm in the key of C (1-8-8).
updated by @folkfan: 02/16/16 04:27:27AM
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
05/14/10 05:55:20PM
2,157 posts



Robin - when and where I grew up, a "Church Key" was a can opener from the days before beer cans had pop tops. Probably was key of C; as in "C that church key? Pass it over so I can open this beer!"
Strumelia
@strumelia
05/14/10 11:28:49AM
2,413 posts



In our gatherings of old-time musicians ( sometimes several hundred at a time), the keys most often played in are G,D,A, and C. There are a LOT of oldtime fiddle tunes in C !! Some jam sessions go on for several hours all in the key of C. The C tunes have a very carnival/circus/rag flavor to them. I notice many of them seem to be from Georgia (U.S. deep south, not Russia ).Brian avoids playing in C because of his old hand injury, he can't make the stretches very well in C on his fiddle. I'm kind of glad about that, because the C fiddle tunes vaguely remind me of scary clowns! lol!!
Dusty Turtle
@dusty
05/14/10 10:23:55AM
1,856 posts



Robin, I have no idea if your speculation is plausible, but I just want to applaud your last line: "you could drink, dance and drone with the devil in D . . . and then chime in church with the choir in C.!"That's a great line!D.T. Robin Clark said:
This is a very interesting thread!

I have no evidence for what I'm about to suggest, just drawing from your posts above.

I wonder if both the keys of C and D were actually regularly used in "Olden Days" (which arn't really that old - my house is the same age as the earliest dated MD). Different regions would have had different primary uses for the instrument and therefore taken tunes from differing sources.

Tunes in the key of C, the "church" key would have been more likely to be written down. Hymns would have been primarily composed on the pump organ/piano by musically literate folk and passed from community to community in written form. The first written books for MD would have come from musically literate folk, much of their material (hymns) would have been in the key of C and it would make sense to transpose folk songs for the MD into the same key for instruction.

Mountain music was more likely to be learned by ear. If you were listening to your uncle play a tune on the fiddle then you are most likely to copy it in the same key. The key of D makes sense as a base. These tunes would be passed from community to community by ear in an aural tradition and would not have been written down until outsider schollars became interested.

In some communities it is quite plausable that you could drink, dance and drone with the devil in D on a Saturday night and then chime in church with the choir in C on the Sunday morning!

Robin
Robin Clark
@robin-clark
05/14/10 04:02:42AM
239 posts



This is a very interesting thread!I have no evidence for what I'm about to suggest, just drawing from your posts above.I wonder if both the keys of C and D were actually regularly used in "Olden Days" (which arn't really that old - my house is the same age as the earliest dated MD). Different regions would have had different primary uses for the instrument and therefore taken tunes from differing sources.Tunes in the key of C, the "church" key would have been more likely to be written down. Hymns would have been primarily composed on the pump organ/piano by musically literate folk and passed from community to community in written form. The first written books for MD would have come from musically literate folk, much of their material (hymns) would have been in the key of C and it would make sense to transpose folk songs for the MD into the same key for instruction.Mountain music was more likely to be learned by ear. If you were listening to your uncle play a tune on the fiddle then you are most likely to copy it in the same key. The key of D makes sense as a base. These tunes would be passed from community to community by ear in an aural tradition and would not have been written down until outsider schollars became interested.In some communities it is quite plausable that you could drink, dance and drone with the devil in D on a Saturday night and then chime in church with the choir in C on the Sunday morning!Robin
folkfan
@folkfan
05/13/10 08:01:49PM
357 posts



You are far less likely to break a string going from DAd to CGG than going CGG to DAd. Lowering the note lessens the tension on the string. Your melody string may end up mushy though if you have a string gauge designed for DAd. To tune down from D to C and A to G is to simply go down one note. To go from d to G is to go down 5 notes.I wouldn't hesitate to tune DAA to CGG and back again, but I would worry about tuning CGG to DAd as my strings are meant for a CGG tuning. To go up to the d is too high as the increased tension would more likely to break a string. If it didn't the string would probably be to tightly wound as to be unplayable anyway. Dana Harlan said:
As a beginner: I'd like to ask, with only one dulcimer so far, Is there any reason not to tune DAD to learn one song then tune CGG to try to learn another. Is this behavior likely to break strings? I did get some spare strings.

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
05/13/10 06:57:00PM
2,157 posts



Dana - yes changing tunings is "liable to break strings". Maybe. Question is - does it matter?* Breaking strings will not harm your instrument.* Breaking strings will probably not harm you (but "no pain, no gain" as they say ) if you are tuning a moving string not a static string.* Breaking strings will not cost thousands (or even hundreds) of dollars (I pay about $2.50 a set from www.juststrings.com )You're going to change strings anyway every couple months (aren't you?). We're talking a day or two difference in use, probably, if you change tunings often versus rarely.String breakage should NEVER be a consideration when it comes to "should I re-tune or not"...Fact is that strings are gonna break. Get used to it; or buy a drum
Rod Westerfield
@rod-westerfield
05/13/10 06:51:15PM
109 posts



my favorite saying that I tell all my students... "What are those things on the dulcimer head called... TUNERS .... not FINE TUNERS "..so yes by all means try other tunings... you will find that some dulcimers sing better in different keys.. have fun.. and sure you will break strings.. but they are not that expensive..
Dusty Turtle
@dusty
05/13/10 06:34:55PM
1,856 posts



There are actually three migrations (I won't say transformations, for many people, as Ken H attests, still alter tunings often and play a true diatonic instrument) that have led to DAd tuning become the most common.One was the increase in playing chords on the dulcimer. Fingering chords in Mixolydian tuning is apparently easier than doing so in Ionian. That would explain the prevalence of 1-5-8 tunings.As others have pointed out, the vast majority of fiddle tunes, which form the basis of old timey and bluegrass music, are in the keys of D, G, or A. That may indeed have been a factor in favoring tunings in D rather than C.And finally, the additional frets that modern players often put on their dulcimers (the 6+ but also the 1+ and those crazy chromatic things) make a single tuning more versatile than it was in the days of a true diatonic fretboard and noter/drone style playing.To answer Dana's question, yes, the more you change the tuning of your strings the more likely they are to break, but that should not dissuade you from experimenting with different tunings. Keep in mind, though, that when you switch from DAd to CGG you are not only switching from D to C but from Mixolydian to Ionian.Having said all this, I'll confess that I am now at the end of the my first year of dulcimer playing and I have played exclusively DAdd tuning. I play chord/melody style and simply felt the need to get to know the fingerboard in that tuning before moving on. As my comfort level has increased dramatically, I am (almost) ready to start experimenting a bit with "alternate" tunings. I think we each have to approach the instrument at our own pace.Cheers,D.T.
folkfan
@folkfan
05/07/10 10:21:46PM
357 posts



Another thing to remember about the dulcimer in the olden days, which helps explain perhaps a bit about the change of key, is that the dulcimer as a solo instrument was frequently in an open tuning, not key specific. A person playing and singing to the dulcimer simply picked a tone that sounded and held well on the bass (not to tight or to mushy) and then tuned the other strings to that tone as in Ionian 1-5-5. It could have been a C or a C# or a sharped C# or any tone.When people began to play dulcimers together with other instruments then they had to be in a specific key, assuming whoever they were playing with wasn't tone deaf and could actually give them a true note to tune to. Using an open tuning for the dulcimer sort disappeared and as instruction books began to appear the key of C was frequently given to tune describe a note to tune to. Most of those books, that I've seen, will give directions on how to tune all of the most commonly used modes using the key of C as a base. A few gave directions for open tuning as well, but the idea simply of picking a "tone or note that sounds good to you" is sort of a vague way to teach the concept of tuning to people who perhaps have some musical background. Saying tune the bass string to the key of C is more concrete. One book I have gives the learner the choice between the C below Middle C and then Middle C on the middle and melody or using the Middle C for the bass and the octave C for the other strings. I guess that writer figured that the string gauges most dulcimer were strung with at the time would work either for one octave or other.Though the Cripple Creek Dulicmer by Bud and Donna Ford uses the key of G, it's a later publication than some of the ones I started with from the late 50's and early 60's. I don't know specifically when the change over to D came in to majority use. But Ken mentions the late 60's and early 70's which sounds right. Then the switch from DAA to DAd occurred.
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
05/07/10 09:20:10PM
2,157 posts



No. Traditionally each MODE had a specific keynote. The shift was from Ionian Mode in the key of C to Ionian Mode in the key of D.Aeolian A traditional tuning AEGLocrian B typical tuning Bb F GIonian C traditional tuning CGGDorian D traditional tuning DAGPhrygian E typical dulcimer tuning E Bb GLydian F typical dulcimer tuning F E BbMixolydian G traditional tuning GDgThe story is that back in the late 60s to mid 70s at lot of key of D Irish fiddle tunes were popular performance pieces and that caused the shift to D from C. I don't buy it, but that's one story."Almost all"???? No way Jos!!! Many of us play in a variety of keys. I have one dulcimer exclusively for the key of G. My other dulcimer retunes between C and D regularly.
folkfan
@folkfan
05/07/10 04:51:40PM
357 posts



Personally, I'm still in C, but I think it had to do with playing with other instruments in jams and such. And with the standardization of the 6+ fret on most new instruments, if someone tunes DAd they have two modal patterns (Mix and Ionian) available with one tuning.
updated by @folkfan: 02/17/16 05:52:49AM
Paul Certo
@paul-certo
12/03/10 02:12:16PM
242 posts



The 6+ gives you the ionian scale in a tuning that otherwise would have the mixolydian scale. To add any other mode to the DAD tuning would require more additional frets, or a change in thinking. It's the change in thinking that is sometimes hard to explain and to convince people to adopt. If you begin your scale on a different fret, you get a different mode, but also in a different key. Tuning a string to D, you get the mix mode of D if you play the scale from the open string through the 7th fret. Playing from the 1st fret through the 8th gives you the dorian mode of the key of E. But you need to tune your drones to this new key, or tune them to notes that give you the necessary notes to play the chords for E minor dorian. The main chords would be Em, Am, and B or B7.Players using the true diatonic instrument find this the first time they attempt to play a song outside the first tuning they learn, whatever that tuning may be. Using DAD, and the 6+ fret, players don't see this quite as early, but sooner or later you will find need for these other scales. The capo will make a lot of these possible, but there are instances where that may not be a complete answer either. The fiddle tune "Over The Waterfall" uses the mix mode for the A part, and the ionian mode for the B part. Using a diatonic dulcimer, the way to play this tune is to tune DAD, or 151 in what ever key you prefer, and play the A part on the melody string, and the B part on the middle string, allowing the melody string to become a high drone. The wrinkle here is you can't play with a noter on the middle string. You could play the A part with a noter, palm it and use a finger for the B part, or play the whole song with finger instead of the noter. Or you could play chord style the whole way through. Or swithch from drones to chords.You can teach yourself anything you make your mind up to learn on a dulcimer. There is a playing style or a tuning that will do the job. This outwardly simple instrument has amazing possibilities for those who explore them. I have no doubt that I can spend the rest of my life and not run out of new things to learn. Being a slow learner. Some of you will no doubt be faster than I. The bottom line is to have fun.Paul
john p
@john-p
12/03/10 06:18:59AM
173 posts



I'd always got the impression that asking beginners to remove one of the melody strings was to do with helping them get started without having to worry about the double course spreading or pinching under their fingers, or otherwise becoming derailed.

[Additional] DAD as a standard tuning really only applies to chord or multi string playing because of the notes available on the other strings. The 6+ fret giving an extra mode applies just as well to any tuning really if you stick to melody style.john p
Rod Westerfield
@rod-westerfield
12/02/10 11:56:50PM
109 posts





Sam said:
Dear Lisa, Rod and Paul;

Thanks for the great responses. As beginners, we search for guidance, if we're very, very lucky, we find those of you with the patience, knowledge and wisdom to offer the help and encouragement we need.

Sam
Sam that's what it is all about... helping others... one thing I tell my students and others... I have taken classes from Don Pedi, Linda Brockinton, Steve Seifert, Steve Eulberg and the list can go on.. but I'll never be another any one of these.. we must learn from all them, then develop your playing style and techniques..and become you....
Sam
@sam
12/02/10 10:34:53PM
169 posts



Dear Lisa, Rod and Paul;Thanks for the great responses. As beginners, we search for guidance, if we're very, very lucky, we find those of you with the patience, knowledge and wisdom to offer the help and encouragement we need.Sam
Strumelia
@strumelia
12/02/10 10:24:54PM
2,413 posts



Rod Westerfield said:

like wow that's heavy sister...
... so lets all play on...
right on , brother Mo! lol!
Paul Certo
@paul-certo
12/02/10 10:07:26PM
242 posts



Sam, no license is needed to try different playing styles, other tunings, modes, or even other instruments. If some saucy little teardrop turns your head, your hourglass won't run for a lawyer. Drink deep, and enjoy. The more different things you learn, the more tools you have at your disposal. I never threw away my screwdriver when I bought a pair of pliers. We all have our musical tastes to deal with. Our spirits cry out to go where our muse leads, but my muse may not be your muse. If we cross paths, we can enjoy our time together, but none should expect each other to define our tastes for us.To paraphrase Mike Gregory, who borrowed this from someone else:"Kid, it's your dulcimer. Play it any way you like."Out of all the above, the other tunings and modes may well be the most important things to experience. The modes are somewhat confusing, but you don't necessarily have to fully understand them to use them. You do need to be in the correct tuning to use them, though things like extra frets and capos can simplify that, too. I would suggest not resorting to either of those at first. The use of other tunings has much to teach you, and knowledge is always a good thing. Playing a true diatonic dulcimer for a time will teach you the use of modes and tunings first hand. Book learning is good, but experience brings it all home. For the purpose of quick mode changes in a concert situation, a capo or an extra fret or two may be smoother, but audiences aren't so restless that re tuning between songs is a problem. The problem is really more in the mind of players than audiences. We perceive the time as much larger than it really is. And for those who sing, finding a key that is comfortable for your voice may require several keys to cover a range of songs.As you learn more things, your own playing style will emerge, and you find yourself changing the songs to suit what you like. This is what separates real playing from a machine programmed to play everything exactly as written. And gives the music life.Paul
Rod Westerfield
@rod-westerfield
12/02/10 09:49:14PM
109 posts





Strumelia said:

I think people and things are all unique combinations anyway- none of us really fits perfectly into a generalization, but we can be generalized when all our 'uniquenesses' are thrown together. hmm...tricky concept to understand.
like wow that's heavy sister... but I agree with it and Randy... I'm glad for all the different styles of play because as Randy said the main thing is to your music, your style how ever you want to play... and I hope many people will be open to trying to use those things on the top of our dulcimers as "TUNERS" not "FINE" tuners for DAA or DAd try other keys and other modes find what fits you and your dulcimer... so lets all play on...
Strumelia
@strumelia
12/02/10 08:12:02PM
2,413 posts



I think the more different types of dulcimers and the more styles of dulcimer playing we try out, the better we are equipped to decide what our own favorite things are. Also the better we can understand why others like different things too! After trying out many things, we can happily settle into focusing on certain things we are attracted to most, yet still respect the stuff we are not as interested in.I think people and things are all unique combinations anyway- none of us really fits perfectly into a generalization, but we can be generalized when all our 'uniquenesses' are thrown together. hmm...tricky concept to understand.
Sam
@sam
12/02/10 06:29:39PM
169 posts



Dear Randy Adams;Your 2 cents worth are worth much more to me. Your observations are highly pragmatic and were very helpful as I have been worrying needlessly over what this person said or that person said. As a beginner, I'm at a total loss at what to do most of the time. Your post clarifies many of the questions I've had, but got no clear answers to. I've been thinking of going from DAA to DAD. It appears to me (again as a novice) that DAD is a more versitile tuning (mode, key, chord, gear ... whatever). In looking through some tab, I find more of the songs I want to try to learn are in DAD than DAA. Your very well put thoughts sort of gives me the 'license' to fool around.ThanksSamP.S. ... I LOVE elipsisessessesssessss ...

Randy Adams said:
Sorry I just can''t let this go by without offering my 2 cents worth....thinking if some of these notions aren't challenged every so often they might be taken as fact...or that there is some kind of majority agreement here.
There are legit reasons to have just one melody string....ignorance or a lack of motivation notwithstanding.....it simply sounds better with some playing styles....& not having much to do with ease of play...it ain't very hard to play with the double melody string....in fact it's easier to slide a noter over 2 strings.
And while we're on the subject....DAd is by far the most versatile tuning...& that's the reason most people use it....2 or 3 modes can be played out of it....& 3 or 4 keys....it's a good tuning to start out playing in.
Also while we're on the subject....For my playing in 2010 I don't really care about how the very 1st dulcimer was configured or the method of play of the very 1st dulcimer player or when the 1st dulcimer was invented...like anyone knows anyways....or the ability to play all the modes by tuning DAA, DAB, DAc, DAd, DAe etc.....that's all well & good f'sure.... I appreciate those who study the origins of the dulcimer and I enjoy looking at the pictures and reading the scholarly stories & speculations & I respect the history & traditions of the music....
But for me the dulcimer is a tool to play the music I want to play...however I need to strike the strings or make the notes or tune the strings or configure the instrument to be able to play the tunes I like....& I'm sure that's what the very 1st dulcimer player was after too....
Randy Adams
@randy-adams
05/09/10 08:09:54AM
125 posts



Sorry I just can''t let this go by without offering my 2 cents worth....thinking if some of these notions aren't challenged every so often they might be taken as fact...or that there is some kind of majority agreement here.There are legit reasons to have just one melody string....ignorance or a lack of motivation notwithstanding.....it simply sounds better with some playing styles....& not having much to do with ease of play...it ain't very hard to play with the double melody string....in fact it's easier to slide a noter over 2 strings.And while we're on the subject....DAd is by far the most versatile tuning...& that's the reason most people use it....2 or 3 modes can be played out of it....& 3 or 4 keys....it's a good tuning to start out playing in.Also while we're on the subject....For my playing in 2010 I don't really care about how the very 1st dulcimer was configured or the method of play of the very 1st dulcimer player or when the 1st dulcimer was invented...like anyone knows anyways....or the ability to play all the modes by tuning DAA, DAB, DAc, DAd, DAe etc.....that's all well & good f'sure.... I appreciate those who study the origins of the dulcimer and I enjoy looking at the pictures and reading the scholarly stories & speculations & I respect the history & traditions of the music....But for me the dulcimer is a tool to play the music I want to play...however I need to strike the strings or make the notes or tune the strings or configure the instrument to be able to play the tunes I like....& I'm sure that's what the very 1st dulcimer player was after too....
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
05/04/10 03:16:01PM
2,157 posts



Sure John...sure I know the doubled melody course was started in the 60s."I think Ken is wrong to suggest that 3 string players are in some way chickening out from the the demands of managing a double course."Maybe not, John, but I cannot tell you many hundreds of times in the last 35 years that I've heard/read one player telling another to remove one of the doubled melody strings "because it makes it easier to learn to play" or because "playing double melody strings is too hard if you play chords". Chickening-out or not, that's what is told to hundreds, if not thousands, of players every year.
John Shaw
@john-shaw
05/04/10 11:46:01AM
60 posts



I have to challenge KenH's assertion that "the dulcimer was invented/designed as a three course Instrument". The oldest dulcimers that have come down to us are probably teardrop-shaped Virginia style instruments, almost all of which have 4 strings which are in a more or less equidistant arrangement. Usually the frets ran under 2 of the strings, which probably indicates that the player depressed both strings with a noter despite their physical separation and let the other 2 sound as drones. This playing practice persists today in Galax-style, though Galax instruments are more commonly other single-bouted patterns (boat-shaped or wide diamond-ish shape) rather than teardrop. Some old-time Virginia players may have chosen to fret only one string with the noter - it's difficult to be sure of anything -and the equidistant arrangement gave them the choice.The Cumberland mountain, Huntington WV and North Carolina instruments were normally designed as 3 course instruments, with just 3 individual strings - and thanks to Jean Ritchie the Cumberland (Thomas/Amburgey) pattern became the folk revival's initial model of what a dulcimer was like.As Ralph Lee Smith makes clear in "Appalachian Dulcimer Traditions" the three course dulcimer with a doubled melody string (the pattern we are most familiar with in present day dulcimers) is an "innovation of the folk revival" which Homer Ledford started in unusual circumstances. At some point in his career (about 1960 according to Ralph) he began to make 3-course dulcimers with a doubled middle course to suit his own playing style, but started putting the double course on the outside (where we know it today) at the request of Floyd Baker (Edna Ritchie's husband). This was to suit Floyd's noter-playing style, as Floyd did not want an extra drone string, and preferred the double course to be on the melody strings to help the melody carry over the drones. The innovation caught on - for good reason, Ken would say! But it is still a dulcimer revival-era innovation.I write as a dedicated 3-course buff who has no inclination to explore 4-string equidistant playing, but 4 equidistant string dulcimers have at least as much historical justification as 3-string ones. Historically both types would have been played noter-drone style of course. I love that sound and approach, but I also love other approaches (chording;flatpicking across all strings etc.) all of which are just as much revival-era innovations as the double course melody string is!To each his/her own! Ken has a clear preference for a double melody course, but let's be clear that it is an artistic preference (to which, of course, he is perfectly entitled) rather than something with deep roots in dulcimer history. Most of the time I prefer the character of a single melody string - the sound I first fell in love with on the early Jean Ritchie records. Mine is an artistic preference too. I think Ken is wrong to suggest that 3 string players are in some way chickening out from the the demands of managing a double course. Personally I have a wonderful MD with a double course melody string in my brood which I play when that's the sound I want, but more often I choose to play dulcimers with a single melody string. Sorry Ken, but I had to get this off my chest - and I do agree with most of your other points - honest!
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
05/03/10 05:22:42PM
2,157 posts



No problem, DT. Different observations of "accomplished players" in different parts of the country I guess. The accomplished players I know, like Robert Force, Bonnie Carol, Steve Eulberg, Lance Frodsham and Kerry Coates don't take off a string to make it easier bends. They all just bend double strings.
Dusty Turtle
@dusty
05/02/10 06:24:58PM
1,856 posts



Sorry, Ken. I guess I misunderstood you. I had thought your point was that a lot of beginners are wrongly convinced to remove the double string believing it would be easier to learn that way. I took you to be emphasizing "beginners" and "believe," meaning you thought they were wrong. My point was simply that many players who are not beginners and who learned on 4-string instruments have switched to playing 3-string because it is easier to bend strings. Maybe you can bend double strings, but there is no doubt it is a lot harder. There may indeed be other reasons for playing 3 single strings. It seems to me that Stephen Seifert chimed in on this on ED not long ago and listed advantages and disadvantages to both single and double strings.I play a four-string dulcimer and hope to soon play a six-string dulcimer, but I think there are legitimate reasons for preferring single strings. Not everyone who plays that way was a misguided beginner.Again, if I misinterpreted your post, I'm sorry.D.T. Ken Hulme said:
Dusty'

I did say said that many folks remove the fourth string believing it is easier to play that way.

You said: That may be accurate, but a lot of accomplished players remove the double string to make it easier to bend strings.

Ummm... Hello? Isn't bending strings a method of playing them? I certainly don't go around maliciously putting bends in strings otherwise...

Personally I don't have trouble bending double strings... but then I eat my Wheaties!!
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
05/02/10 04:33:15PM
2,157 posts



Dusty'I did say said that many folks remove the fourth string believing it is easier to play that way.You said: That may be accurate, but a lot of accomplished players remove the double string to make it easier to bend strings. Ummm... Hello? Isn't bending strings a method of playing them? I certainly don't go around maliciously putting bends in strings otherwise... Personally I don't have trouble bending double strings... but then I eat my Wheaties!!
Dusty Turtle
@dusty
05/02/10 12:03:27AM
1,856 posts



As far as I've observed, all your observations are accurate with the sole exception, as noted by Ken H., of the 13+ fret, which is standard on most dulcimers with the 6+ fret.I just want to offer one additional comment on the double melody string. Ken H states that many folks remove the fourth string believing it is easier to play that way. That may be accurate, but a lot of accomplished players remove the double string to make it easier to bend strings. I am not one of them, for I am not accomplished, and I like the double string. In fact, my next dulcimer will be a 6-string dulcimer. But as a guitarist I can attest to the ease of bending strings when only playing a single string. I play lots of 12-string guitar, but whenever I want to play blues or even fast-paced bluegrass, I grab the six-string.And the whole justification for doubling the melody string only makes sense if you play noter/drone style, where the melody string has to compete with the volume of the bass and middle string. If you are playing cross string or chord/melody, you want all the strings to have about the same volume.I know there are many out there who lament the standardization of the DAdd tuning and the 6+ fret. I must admit that I rarely play in other tunings and will probably add a 1+ fret on my next dulcimer. Sorry, dear traditionalists, but I'll let you down again.D.T.
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